2020 October

The real problem with SGD?

Relegating CP-RED to the bottom in a hierarchy of valuing that makes no sense.

These “sophisticated” CP-RED politicians including TRUMP are all drawing from deep power cores and morphing that power through other core hybridisation!

Typical case is Pelosi who has been a chameleon whose power desires have allowed her to adapt that power core all along the way—so easy to understand if SGD Hierarchy is displaced and my network model is embedded.

It’s clearly the greatest error to push a theory of everything where the elegance is overshadowed by the error.

The VERY SAME modus operandi operates in TRUMP but his base of power has less money and a lack of deep pockets…deep pockets is favoured in a power struggle for hearts and minds that generally could care less (low power and status).

It’s not on me to correct others errors as I’ve tried to convince beck and his following but most of them went the way of FS-GREEN dominance and it was profitable for him to allow it rather than prohibit it…his own power needs obfuscates by a lack of evolution and sophistication in his own power hybridisation.

Only messworks have emerged:(


13 replies on “The real problem with SGD?”

“These “sophisticated” CP-RED politicians including TRUMP are all drawing from deep power cores and morphing that power through other core hybridisation!”

Apologies, but I can’t help but think of this satire piece after reading the sentence above. The imagery in the piece below is heavily influenced by video games, which is itself influenced by archetypal ‘truths.’

“Power! Unlimited power!” he cried as lightning crackled off his fingertips.

Alicia Parr

LOL…that’s a good one.

I am mulling the values list mike. Thanks for sending.

I’ll write more about this but “trans valuation” is helpful here.

At Tier 1…the hierarchical stack is probably accurate and has a developmental progression to it that is somewhat accurate…we all start out at Red, have a blue period, then branch to orange or green, ett

At Tier 2…this of course makes no sense what so ever.. All Tier 1 value basins are ESSENTIAL for actually accomplishing tasks at Tier 2. You cannot solve complex complex adaptive problems without the full Tier 1 value basin at your disposal WITH individuals and systems embedded with those values.

Messworks emerges because it is only at GT-Y where there is capability to align and integrate (and dial up/dial down) Tier 1 values based necessity vs valuing the values.

SGD would not solve much of its problems if it removed its notion of hierarchy at Tier 1 – because there are no Tier 2 practitioners who can do anything about it anyway.

e.g. no one at Tier 2 (which means they actually understand how the world works…back to my prerequisites)…would have any arguments with your statement about CP-RED. You gain no traction on your flattening Tier 1 – because there is no one to talk to in the SGD world that can actually understand what you are saying…at a visceral level.

Beck gives you the brush off because he has made his bed with FS-Green followers.

I’d say there is a neat yes/and. At Tier 1…hierarchy, progression. At Tier 2, no hierarchy of Tier 1.

People also over a lifetime develop density / frequency around value basins.

e.g. Trump a great example of the carrying capacity of Red/Orange – at extreme densities at Red.

Jim –

“we all start out at Red, have a blue period, then branch to orange or green

People also over a lifetime develop density / frequency around value basins.”

I believe my two biggest densities are blue and green. (I had to laugh when I found “literal” on a list of blue characteristics.) Going back in my memories (my reconstruction) of my childhood, I’ve always been strong blue and I can find green in my younger self. I have no sense of much red or orange in me ever. Am I just unaware of it? What you wrote suggests to me that I’ve gone through transitions I’m not aware of.


A speculation….

One might even make the case that your high acceptance overlays (covers over) a decent density @ CP-Red to extract exactly what you want / need from your social relationships. E.g. You are better at forming adult friendships than anyone I know.

You can’t see it – but your relentless intensity / consistency around it is NOT green or blue. My sense anyway. Way too prime / primal. Red is deep life force energy that extracts / demands from our environment what we need for our self. This is not a statement of judgment but rather just how it functions.

Because the need is intensely social, you need others to like you, you have modest densities at green (e.g. acceptance, willingness to not impose your truth onto another) and significant densities at blue (e.g. loyalty, honesty, integrity, commitment to the relationship, etc)

But I’d say the primal density for it is at Red. Red carries it as a relentless driving need at a level of a requirement of existence. You use green and blue to window dress it up to get the job done.

That’s the power of red. And how red can look so fantastically different depending…

“ At Tier 1…the hierarchical stack is probably accurate and has a developmental progression to it that is somewhat accurate…we all start out at Red, have a blue period, then branch to orange or green, ett”


I can keep explaining it but I can’t understand it for you.

I can’t tell if you reading much, maybe skimming or clumping but I have deconstructed and debunked this progression for two decades now.

It just doesn’t happen like this for most.

DO NOT CONFUSE/REPLACE a pattern of development of a self-concept, or a subjectivity to it with valuing directly.

I won’t say it never lines up, but it doesn’t much, the self concept is related to inborness, motives, and emergent values, as is the development of motor activities and they might be part of a causal chain, or most likely a network, but…

Just because they are related doesn’t mean they fit together nicely in most cases, it seems that “selection” and by that I mean what we notice and are interested in…is not evenly distributed or modulated across life, work, play, faith, relationships or happiness pursuits.

Imagine the self concept or the concept of self, or ego position as a “different” pattern of development which might be affected by, even guided by, or hindered by other patterns.

[On a side note: patterns of development aside from physical are listed directly in CAPABILITY DYNAMICS: Perspective, Subjectivity, Ego Position (Self Concept might be better), Languaging, Task Performance, Talent, Affect, SenseMaking.)

Too many developmentalists want a theory of everything when it’s better to have a solid theory of something.

Regarding ValuDYNAMICS (VD) which is differentiated from Spiral Gravesian Dynamics (SGD); there is no linear progression—NO STACK—no layering, there is a field (I’ll meet you there) with core power nodes connected to each other and singularly to other parts of a network where hybridization is both in potential abd possible. Density & Frequency, as a way to depict what’s in that field of networks.

Terrible twos my good friend!!


And then the profoundly narcistic stage of childhood where you are constructing a world where you are the center of it and can’t think of or incorporate the other, another’s perspective…literally.


This is in part because of the CP-RED Hubris that says “it can be done and I’m the one to do it.”

Other flavours give it names like “crazy” “out of their mind” “stupid” “narcissistic” “ depraved”

Almost all pejorative terms…

I remember how they treated bezos…

And how they treat him now…


Thanks for this…you’re probably right. A sloppy statement.

And…I don’t think we get to adulthood without a fair bit of banging around the value basins. I notice my kids having developmental stages with corresponding values attractors that are not likely to be their durable categories of density/frequency. We’ll see. Culture also plays an extraordinary role and can be a durable values generator for individuals, or certainly severely dampen certain generators (esp. at Kegan Stage 3 – which can extend a lifetime)

My 13 year old son believes in Jesus Christ right now – because he hangs out with grandma. I ask who Jesus is and he says he is God. And then ask why this is important and he talks about wanting to go to heaven. There is “truth force” energy in his stance. Whether this is a durable belief or more interestingly a durable value basin that is generating this…only time will tell. Culturally (family system) we do not endorse the belief so this particular one is probably going to fade. That said…so I say to him: “So you believe this because Grandma said so.” And he says: “yep” And then I say “huh.”


My sense…we need to thoroughly upgrade the framing of CP-Red if you want to not have CP-Red denigrated. How to conceptualize as it moves through building density and frequency over a lifetime. Mostly it’s caricatured. As are all the Tiers it seems.

Trump is easy to see and is at deep densities of @ Red. But an N of 1 in a 100 different ways. And he’s just a plain old caricature himself.

Bezos is one of the most respected business leaders in the world – it would seem he is a poster child for strong frequency/densities at CP-Red.. I know you think others slam him for it, but not sure what the point would be. At Tier 1, people self-hug and see their value densities being the true ones. It’s the nature of things for us to scream bloody murder at people you look differently and value differently than us.

If we want Red to be respected and understood for its carrying capacity, one place to start is we give Red the respect it is due. E.g. It built the most extraordinary company probably in the history of the planet. He is a complex hybrid, but no question has plenty of Red to power up and through, plow through with bewildering tenacity barriers, irrespective of impact on people, places things. Does anyone think it gone done without CP-Red? That’d be a place to start, an opening for a conversation about healthy densities.

We need to speak to all the ways CP-Red begins to create density / frequency and carries real load that other value basins can’t.

That said…most Red is not easy to see. So that is part of the problem. It is covered over by other value basins. Your personal form of Red is a sliver of how Red manifests – “Red ass” as you say. This particular manifestation is the overt values expression tied with overwhelming motive structures at Red and if not married with other value basins, it is fairly suboptimal in the sense that it has limited contexts where it is fit.

But we are all hybrids, Red especially, given we are intensely social creatures, usually gets matched with other value basins to tap into its unique contributions. If not, it gets sidelined.

My old business partner (brilliant 40 year in the profession doctor) was overwhelming at Red. A maverick, in all the good ways/bad ways. His career was a story of the orgs he worked with controlling his @Red value expression. He did not have enough density at either orange or green to ever be given broader mantels of leadership. I was his path to hybridize his capability. We got fairly far before he finally had enough of being harnessed to the cause which Red has no interest in doing. Hot and immediate…is mostly how it manifests. Harnessing ain’t in the cards.

Re: hybridization…e.g. SEAL selection requires strong @ Red but it must be married with Blue otherwise they weed you out in a heartbeat. You must be able to work in the context of a team, sublimate to the team…while also being a fierce warrior able to kill and be killed.

But like all these value basins at Tier 1, at the individual level, if you have overwhelming density/frequency at just one and none of the others…the contexts you are fit for are very limited, unless someone else can use your capability. (e.g. predominant FS-Green can’t find their way out of a box…or rather they design process like when you spin around a bat as fast as you can and then come of and see how far you can go before you crash to the floor, they must be hybridized to be effective.)

E.g. my neighbor – he is emotionally/psychically compressed (64 independently wealthy), so coming “home” to what is most dense in him…CP-Red. I’ve given him the battery of assessments. He’s off the chart high compete on TKI and high 90s on disagreeable on the Big Five, etc. He’s constantly trying to hire my kids to do yard work. It would seem a perfect match. Willing to pay decent wages. My kids, who are looking for income – will not work for him at any wage. My 16 year old son did set a theoretical wage rate at $25…but then said that he could probably last a day. So this guy with all the money in the world has a ridiculously hard time finding someone willing to work with him to just maintain his lawn. He can’t solve that problem. He is now out alone in the world, no org to wrap around his capability. So @ Red or any of the other Tier 1s, just can’t get much accomplished before you reach its structural limitations. Complex things (which most everything is now) or problems need the full basket of values for them to come to some reasonable solution.

I can’t think of a leader I work with that doesn’t have a strong enough core @ Red. I know it when it is absent. And it sucks…because there just isn’t enough concentrated life force energy to take on most leadership assignments.

It manifest 100 different ways. Like can you power up HARD in an instant to protect that which you love.

Funny story, about an hour ago 5 am my wife comes up screaming that the dogs are fighting in the garage with something. It’s pitch black outside, I have my pajamas on, no shoes, she’s setting the pace by her level of concern – screaming her head off (thinks her beloveds are getting ripped to shreds by a rabid something).

The solution (all in an instant)…I send me in (not sending my her in of course) or in hindsight rather is it she sends me in?? I am the expendable defender of the home. Which I did in the dark, barefoot…to pull the dogs off of something, no idea what. I fully powered up ready to do whatever was necessary physically to resolve the problem and protect our dogs, including putting myself in harms way.

That’s how values work…they work instantaneously…there is no thought process

When Red is present at density/frequency (attending values) it radiates an energetic field. “don’t F with me.” Or “you can’t hurt me.” That solves a lot of problems. Or rather it goes upstream of problems before they occur.

None of this needs to be projected with asshole energy (low social contact, high expedience, etc) to get the job done or to have fairly high densities at Red. Hybridization can get the job done at a far more complex level. Or rather allow for vastly more contexts where it is a fit value basin.

Very important point here:

“ Culture also plays an extraordinary role and can be a durable values generator for individuals, or certainly severely dampen certain generators (esp. at Kegan Stage 3 – which can extend a lifetime)…”

If a person has a motive structure which is very adaptive they will always be affected by other, check the pattern of “external reference” in IWAM for clues.

If I’m high ACCEPTANCE, I have social radar pickup all non-verbal as well as verbal and add some order, family, interdependence, low status, beauty, low venganza and expedience (low honor) to that puppy and your DCAB will be FS-GREEN…

Add high tranquility and honor and introversion and your perfectly served at friendly DQ-B…which is why if you put people in the grip DQ-B ordinarily conservative because conservatism emerges at sacrifice to her later…

You can easily see people mask up to “belong” easier path than agency so you buy in to group agency where responsibility morphs from the individual to the collective supporting a false “lift” (elites gain this attribute from being ingroup and going along with someone who is not in-group but offers a “seemingly” easier solution!)

Professional sports is in the process of destroying itself unless it confesses quickly and heartily and banishes all politics from sports!

An FS-GREEN DOMINANT CULTURE will relegate sports to one of those history channel offshoots!

If the culture doesn’t shun politics in either regression or progression the USA as we know is over.

I’ve been eluding to Jim’s point but it’s critical that people evaluate ahead of time what kinds of content, context, conditions, culture, code and core—a framework of development that I created 2 decades ago to keep me grounded.

There is no more leverage than u see standing your core and how it’s designing your experience.

Imagine knowing that you’re motivated to depression as a pattern which serves your core design?


Imagine you don’t, like 99% of the depressed.

Each path sans an inborn Self-awareness design is different by a large degree.

Now expand that over a core motive profile that you keep after to notice how the e5 affect you…

If you have a very adaptive type, as evidenced in the “walkaways” then the tendency will be to follow your design and values emerge from that…they may not be what you wished for.


We have TREMENDOUS mental health issues coming at us with no development of GT-Y D&F



Knowledge or understanding of one’s own nature, abilities, and limitations; insight into oneself.
The knowledge of one’s own real character, abilities, worth, or demerit.
Knowledge of one’s self, or of one’s own character, powers, limitations, etc.
More at Wordnik from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.

First published Fri Feb 7, 2003; substantive revision Mon May 18, 2015
In philosophy, “self-knowledge” standardly refers to knowledge of one’s own sensations, thoughts, beliefs, and other mental states. At least since Descartes, most philosophers have believed that our knowledge of our own mental states differs markedly from our knowledge of the external world (where this includes our knowledge of others’ thoughts). But there is little agreement about what precisely distinguishes self-knowledge from knowledge in other realms. Partially because of this disagreement, philosophers have endorsed competing accounts of how we acquire self-knowledge. These accounts have important consequences for a broad range of philosophical issues, especially issues in epistemology and the philosophy of mind.

This entry focuses on knowledge of one’s own particular mental states. A separate topic sometimes referred to as “self-knowledge”, knowledge about a persisting self, is addressed in a supplement: Knowledge of the Self.


“ Whether this is a durable belief or more interestingly a durable value basin that is generating this…”

Like I said, you reach much of the ANTICHRIST you will wonder what generates this…

“ I call Christianity the one great curse, the one great intrinsic depravity, the one great instinct for revenge for which no expedient (i.e. A means of attaining an end, especially one that is convenient but considered improper or immoral) is sufficiently poisonous, secret, subterranean, petty —I call it the one immortal blemish of mankind…
And one calculates time from the dies nefastus on which this fatality arose—from the “first” day of Christianity! Why not rather from its last? From today? Revaluations of all values!”

— Nietzsche, Conclusion, The Antichrist.[1]

I haven’t read enough but in trying to understand whether Nietzsche was at a sophisticated level of DQ-B…

Where I have made the case you have to be one to know one, that isms arise from the same “dogmatic” generator.

[I probably need to link this into DQ-BLUE Notes (wasn’t that a band;)…]

If someone said evaluate this performance in terms of D&F I would say overwhelming D&F @DQ-B.

When I first starting reading quotes from Nietzsche he reads at a different basin, possibly GT-Y…

Transvaluation in my view is a GT-Y Artefact…but not transvaluation its self but this idea:

A second or subsequent valuation made using a different standard or principle.” – wordnik

[Complexity now, sorry]

Remember our discussion about kanguaging meaning and people use big words but don’t necessarily know what they mean and worse—only can unpack a single persoective?

With that in mind 2 things:

1. Nietzsche is correct for a lot of reasons especially in his final conclusion:

“Revaluations of all values!”

This would be an artefact that I could point to in GT-Y as an artefact, not yet a value…

2. Because as I’m about to suggest, what is Nietzsche subject too in this brief performance/excerpt?

His subjectivity is religion and his object is…it’s not right!

Nietzsche’s father was a minister and so was Jung’s which is why you see the sophisticated artefacts at DQ-B.

Nietzsche was a dragon. I believe from what I’ve read an “8” and thus mad…no pun intended—opppsitional and angry most of the time…directed at?

Well I can’t say, I hope I can read more later;(

[And I apologise for only reading and responding to one of Jim’s snippets at a time because to discussion the aperture has to be closed enough or the damned discussion (mike) goes everywhere:(]

Ok to reconstruct here, as Nietzsche uses transvaluation unpacked as “reevaluation” the artefact of transvaluing appears at DQ-B in this performance IMHO.

In Jim’s note he points to age and development as being implicit in his son’s religious perspective…

That was what triggered my ongoing thoughts about “faith” and of course religions and secularisation that serve it (bye the way, Reiss used the RMP to research religiosity — my words)

REMEMBER: Life Conditions (note in the first position A-M in SGD) & Neurological System (N-Z) + Resultants = feedback to incentives and disincentives (BECK&COWAN left out?):

In other words if you had LC of say a mix of A, B, C…

And you had values at GT-Y?

What might you sign-on to if you knew that most people were going to die of disease and pestilence, malnutrition, enslavers or slaughter?

Can you imagine the world at ABC?

Is it any wonder that LC improved to D in concert with forms of order, honor and tranquility (guilt) being induced into LC ABC?

Is it also at any wonder at LC-DCF emerging in D&F that Nietzsche and others would have been valued into seeing the flaws in BCD?

Ok what I have tried to model is an idea of both transvaluation and D&F in GT-Y however sparse it might appear…

You know the etched words in a concave car mirror allowing you to see more and be open to more territory than a convex mirror?

Things are MUCH CLOSER than they appear.

So an artefact of 1st tier seems to be that concave experience without the Metasystematic energy and information either in the collective or the individual.

1st tier is clearly being cued, scaffolded, supported, lifted and protected by FS-GREEN…

However all are closer than they appear. The devil remains in the details and the farther distance we venture from DQ-Blue D&F, the greater the fall.

Progression can harm more than people realise as is the lesson of lockdown, and risk is too great because FS-GREEN CAN’T PAY FOR WHAT ITS DESIGN WILL PRODUCE…

Hence socialistic policies will be evoked to continue to try to close the gap.

Regan defeated the soviets for one reason only…they ran out of money, even with all the resources, the production system imploded—FS-GREEN doesn’t understand production and they have distanced themselves from DQ-BLUE.

Name one productive thing the DEMs have done in the last 4 years?

While TRUMP managed to improve production even in the face of a fight everyday telling him he’s a no good son of a bitch—undauntability (CP-RED; you’re better off killing them!)

Now I agree that you may not like the kind of production he produced and that’s part of the rub and as they say…”rubbin is racin.”

They say they are going to produce all these green jobs but they are not net bee jobs because FS-GREEN doesn’t understand production because the job lost will be jobs gamed from fossil to green and the costs and subsidies will override any gain by a factor of paradigm-shifting 10x.

If you understand production you always wait for the market to shift you don’t try to create a market especially when it calls for a values shift!

DQ-B understands this and then create the foundation of law, order, administration, market so that ER-O has a field day and provides the very freedom that allows FS-GREEN.

People who are goose hunters don’t collect eggs.

My favorite CP-RED clip to FS-GREEN…

But note one thing worth remembering, DQ-B won, not FS-GREEN who benefits;)

See the absolute raw force used when the CP-RED core is threatened?

Don’t poke a shark!

If the Dems win, they will have us in a war within months…the ONLY super ordinate appeal/goal that can pull the country into focus outside of itself.

If they don’t, things will continue to deteriorate rapidly in our civil order.

TRUMP will be pulled into War both inside and outside.

Everyone is now setup for a biden win as polls are clearly in his favor…that’s enough to start a Revolution with the most precioua reaiurce — our immature and unsophisticated spoiled kids:(


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