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2016 August

Just an aside on asymmetry

I forgot who was discussing the idea that until we had “some” people get rich enough to rise from “survivalism” or AN-BEIGE, we didn’t get “periods” of enlightenment.

I was triggered to write/remember by seeing the Cambodian Temples where the “gods” live, realizing the 81 hectare compound was built from “slave” labor much like all the great wonders…I think even figuratively the Empire State Building which was a marvel of construction and is a testimony of what “business/people” can do.

So back to the premise of asymmetry, RATHER THAN equality or for that matter INEQUALITY…in order for humanity sans you and me to evolve, asymmetries must be guarded.

The question is to what end and in what ways!

mike

25 replies on “Just an aside on asymmetry”

I typed in my dictionary website “assymmetry” and only the Urban Dictionary came back with a hit: “1. How idiots spell “asymmetry.” 2. The standard metric unit used to measure ass.” Hmm….

Well I never said spelling was my strong suit.

Curious Mike if you have an example or two of asymmetries that needed to be guarded.

I assume you are not proposing that slavery is one of them (???), although it is an example of extreme asymmetry between humans for sure.

And given that most experts contend that the world has more slaves now than in any other time in history, in spite of world wide condemnation and legal constructs to the contrary, it doesn’t seem to need guarding. In this particular arena, asymmetry is thriving.

Other examples?

And given that most experts contend that the world has more slaves now than in any other time in history, in spite of world wide condemnation and legal constructs to the contrary, it doesn’t seem to need guarding. In this particular arena, asymmetry is thriving.
I didn’t check it but I would suggest that the percentages have always remained consistent where the numbers have not.

As to guarding slavery, I can’t say more because I would called a racist but MANY OWE THEIR FORTUNES to slavery.

mike

It’s the “guarding” that I was curious about, not that there is asymmetry.

Asymmetry is embedded in everything, everyone, every structure. Symmetry is not. Any kind of symmetry will get upended back into asymmetry without extraordinary effort. So guarding it is the question, and in what ways.

And of course many owe their wealth/standard of living to slavery. See: How Slavery Built the World Economy. It appears to be a subset of “nature of man” to do so if not countered.

“My good man, what form of slavery are you taking about…that with form, or that without?” — wasn’t my point, those with power and wealth tend to work to maximize the value they can get from others, including at times enslaving others in all sorts of ways. Slavery is on a continuum and comes in many forms. My point was that it doesn’t need guarding, it is doing quite well on its own. E.g. you can buy a person for about $40 in parts of Africa.

About your example of buying hygiene supplies for myPals vs. just giving them money vs. doing nothing vs. doing something else. I don’t want to specifically address this, I respect your path to try to create impact in peoples’ lives. I get curious about why you do it, and how you do it, but that is not my business. I do know that you will likely ultimately not be able to peel away the complexity enough to know whether what it is you are doing is creating your desired impact other than through anecdote. That is not a criticism nor an argument to stop, just a reality of complexity.

What I can tell you is it is a raging debate now in international aid discussion. The research is fairly clear that outsiders coming in and imposing their values and solutions has pissed away untold billions with little to nothing to show for it. E.g. most consider the billions funneled into Africa for decades to be a complete waste of resources. That said, the idea of just giving actual money to people in poverty is also a perilous path with little good data to support it.

Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Thus the starfish mentality has its merit.

Or structured solutions, like micro credit lending, which attempt to balance out a wide set of “natures of man” seem to have gained ground the last 20 years. E.g. provide access to credit (loans) that must be paid back to fund supporting very small but viable business enterprises. Money goes to people who “can do it.” If they can’t, they don’t get a next round of financing.

—-

Re: “Something most people forget…if I don’t want to like u or be around u, or want my family near u, a right surrounding the pursuit of happiness, it’s ok…an asymmetry!” Yes, to this right.

Now in practical terms, what do I get to do to express this “right?” I move into a neighborhood and I do not like my neighbor, I do not want my family near this neighbor. So what do I get to do? Shoot him, burn his house down, burn his image in effigy, vandalize his car, throw eggs as his house, scowl at him, not say hi to him. It is a continuum of things that can be done and others have a right to decide if they then want you as their neighbor.

In the United States, some of the options I mentioned are not allowed by our society (made illegal) and create a deterrent to me expressing myself in ways that I would consider my right “to be who I am.” This is a really interesting tension of value basins. It is painfully obvious to me that if we live within groups we do not have unlimited right to be who we are. The group will set limits, boundaries to our individual behavior. This is as core to the “nature of man” as anything else. We would not have survived as a species without this capacity.

Re: Graves saying: “People have a right to be who they are.” – it strikes me as painfully Green, and not saying much. I used to understand this, now I don’t.

Let’s say you are a nasty sociopath. If you are in the middle of a wilderness with no one in 100 miles of you, go to town being who you are. Even expressing yourself however you want to. If the sociopath is embedded in a group, often times the sociopaths win the battle for supremacy because they are willing to do things others are not. I am not condemning all sociopathic behavior (most of us have some), lots of people speculate that many/most? CEOs have some degree of sociopathic capacity / personality

But if you live in a group, this right is balanced by the rights of others. This is HARD WIRED into the human species. I don’t see any disagreement in the literature around the evolutionary fact that our capacity to navigate group dynamics is what allowed us to survive/thrive.

And in turn, if it cannot be balanced, then in the good old days (which continue today) it usually will come down to force of some kind to instill this balance of rights or one will win out over the other. Name a social issue that isn’t at its core your right vs. my right to express ourselves, to be who we are, to value what we value AND impose what we value on you/us/societal norms. The group will decide what the norm will be, and then it will be a matter of whether the group can enforce that norm.

So my response to Graves is “yeah, ok, so what is the next sentence, tell me about the right to express yourself, what right do you have to do that in the context that you live among others?”

And people / groups figure this out all the time. And so do cities, states, countries. Even the most extreme libertarians will set endless limits to human behavior. Like a pedophile (someone sexually attracted to young children). Would be interesting to find a libertarian who says, yes you have the right to be who you are (having these desires, feelings, wants) AND you have the right to express them with young children.

Now looking into the mirror that face another mirror…others (probably 99%) will tell this libertarian that he/she has the right to think whatever they want, but we then have the right to ostracize you, make you irrelevant to the political discussion, etc. It is what we humans do, the nature of man.

It doesn’t have to be complicated or need laws to govern. Final story…my wife’s dad lives in a gated retirement community in Florida that is extremely social. For example, they have weekly block parties. A gay couple moved into the neighborhood. A few neighbors did not like that and were very vocal about it to the new couple and to other neighbors. Punchline, the neighbors that ostracized the gay couple were effectively shunned by 95% of the neighborhood, became unwelcome everywhere they went. I am not arguing that this conclusion was fair or unfair but rather to point out that this is a part of the ”nature of man” and we are not going to escape it. Who’s values get imposed depends on a combination of who has power, wealth, and numbers.

I wanted to write on this one separately.

“Asymmetry is embedded in everything, everyone, every structure. Symmetry is not.”

My first thought is no, symmetry is equally present or patterns would not exist!

I’ll think about it more.

mike

Wanted to address this separate also:

“Now in practical terms, what do I get to do to express this “right?”

It’s ALWAYS governed by ones need for acceptance in whatever form, direct or indirect.

All social forms have their own rules which do not make them universal, which is why if you don’t want people in your ingroup or outgroup, u should be able to have a right not too…

HOWEVER, every social form is a part of a fractal…example:

image1.GIF
This freedoms are only available in view of the necessary constraints on those freedoms…OR to put another way…to the most complex social form.

Since all of us are bounding our realities, we are subject to these constraints and limits on our freedoms…so no longer can you have in modern America these freedoms, which doesn’t mean it’s right, it just is…lucky–for now–we have our house, I think we lost the yard already;)

I don’t want to have to like things I don’t like, but I do and I must if I want certain success, so I can maintain my lab.

But I must admit…I don’t like it;)

This may be completely wrong-headed, but what if you factor in time? For example, snapshots in time look asymmetrical while seeing a whole cycle mapped out, looks a lot more symmetrical. Otherwise, if there is no symmetry, why would there ever be “corrections”?

Good pickup, yes time is key dimensional perspective as Einstein found as well, although others suggest time is a construct;)

mike

Just a couple of notes I want to express, I was thinking more about how lucky slaves were because they could have stayed where they were and not encountered the best opportunity to lift the generations that follow out of poverty…no one discusses this, hence my angle that even slavery in its most ugly form may lead and does to a better life for your children, go figure.

I guess until you know why slavery exists in some cases, it’s hard to understand…like usury.

Here in my ph lab I see people giving away EVERYTHING and strapping themselves to usury for the sake of life vs. death.

We shouldn’t allow it, but then people would die for lack of money to give life to their loved ones even though through that process yields slavery…guard the right for usury? For slavery? Deny the freedom to enslave yourself, your family and sometimes the sale of your children for life?

Until one has lived in abject hopelessness, one can see that in most cases, slavery is better than what you had!!

I think u will find–and now I will be a racist–that slaves, in general were treated better than most are taught to think…because of you understand the business of slavery, you realize that property must be cared for as one would a horse or sled dog.

Our notions and frames of how the world works are tainted by our KSEs (now I’m in trouble with herb).

What @FS-GREEN WOULD BE SYMMETRY, equality, Justice, fairness, sameness…and the imposition of such–IMHO–is much the same as the problem they seek to solve.

The slaves are in one moment unlucky, in the next, granted fortuitous lives that Shakespeare could only imagine because they are often transported from the cul de sac.

We make more slaves everyday in our modern culture than all of history in the making…its just not the archetypal form.

When I said guard asymmetry + graves quotes–it is important that people being where they are might be the best place for them–my argument for why “some” of Islam using shariah may have a point which is another way to go, albeit the key difference that will continue to confront man and his variety of pugnacities.

It also has to do with what I have learned in my lab in a variety of cultures and that is, intervention may be worse than the problem as you note because we do it at the wrong levels, pulling and pushing people and generations too far too fast.

Hence the need to guard what would seem counter-intuitive to most…guard poverty, usury, slavery?

Hmmm.

Our world today is moving too fast for most, of course it’s comes with yin and yang, benefits and risks, and for those who choose any part of the continuum to none to some, one needs to cognizant of the asymmetries to guard….

Guard is like guide, but it sure has stirred up the water….

When you say guard in my world, it means protect, protect slavery?

If you take it away what will you do in its stead, at least it provides a job…as sick as that might sound:(

What I’m thinking out loud about is what might appear to be unjust and absolutely wrong (clue), may counterintuitively beneficial…like many things in life.

Guarding development, slowing down the accumulation of memes which can’t be assimilated only to produce collapse (as you pointed out with “aid”) even when it may appear unjust is a slippery slope…but as you eluded, aren’t they everywhere;)

My projection on the mypals of my memetic framework of help was a hard learned lesson of failure–a microcosm of most aid today…and btw, micro lending has been in general a huge failure for the same reasons.

Now we are adapting our approach which leaves them in “slavery” and scaffolds them there rather than where we might and they don’t like it, it’s unfair and unjust in their eyes of sameness…yet it’s the only thing that can be sustained, at least until the money dries up…

The money drying up is an interesting asymmetry. For me, it’s hard to justify a few living so well while so many rot…but then that’s just me, and asymmetry must be guarded?

mike

I decided to answer this separately.

I assume you are not proposing that slavery is one of them (???), although it is an example of extreme asymmetry between humans for sure.

My good man, what form of slavery are you taking about…that with form, or that without?

mike

“My good man, what form of slavery are you taking about…that with form, or that without?”

powerful reframe
at least, it is for me

Alicia

Yea I don’t win any spelling bees and this iPhone isn’t always my best friend;)

Curious Mike if you have an example or two of asymmetries that needed to be guarded.
Yes, I do, the fact you asked represents another;)

People are different!

People are at different levels of everything.

Graves said “people can’t be until they are” and “people have a right to be who they are.”

All of which present us with asymmetry, and bias…an asymmetry.

All of which should be guarded literally and figuratively.

Something most people forget…if I don’t want to like u or be around u, or want my family near u, a right surrounding the pursuit of happiness, it’s ok…an asymmetry!

mike

Are you certain your low vengeance is not part of your FS-GREEN?

I see many examples of vindication passively woven into your posts;)

You may be much more natural competitive and more socialized than your Reiss might show because you’re FS-GREEN CORE(?) has an immune response to Reiss questions on vengeance?

Of course for me, there is no hope with a CP-RED CORE–low is me, hehe.

However, I did run across a graphic I did more than a decade ago when I was trying to help people understand my notions of a network of attractor basins which grow in all directions even though my graphic is two dimensional…I would so love to have a retreat and explore all this advanced work in an open dialogue about SGD, values, development and complexity!!

But the time to decide must be now as I’m buying tickets.

Nov 4-6 San Antonio, or anywhere anyone would agree to host and get everyone else to come, I’ll travel and we will stream;) (Wayne?)

Here’s the graphic:

image1.JPG

No that’s not it, hehe, I have to find it again but I will, I’m visualizing it as I speak;)

mike

Now that is curious response. I assume you want me to back off?

Nothing passive about my responses to you. So I’d encourage you not to see them as some sort of passive aggressive response. Actually was trying to create value for me and hopefully for you vs you posting and no one responding. Certainly few are engaging you substantively.

I don’t mind engaging you / your ideas. But that appears to be a bridge too far?

Not at all…

There is a pattern I have triggered in you…just trying to help;)

And yes, you’re engagement hopefully is good for all;)

You got me wrong on this…its been happening for awhile…can’t say I can name this pattern and perhaps that why it might seem I’m bulldogging you;)

Btw, even in the email below I find elements that IMHO lead me to believe there is a developmental edge that could be leveraged.

But I’ll back off if you want;)

Hehe, I found it and some others;)

image1.JPG

What this simplistically depicts is the accumulation of memes to move the stage forward in non-individual systems, although partly it could be applied to depict stage growth.

The real question behind most developmental models is stage theory…is the model a stage theory or not?

SGD is one of the most complex in that realm…some claim kegan and loevinger are not stage models as well….

mike

Mike –

I’m curious where you see passive vindication in Jim’s dialogue with you. His comments have struck me as remarkably balanced (giving the other side its due) and unemotional. What have I been missing?

Herb

Mike,

Full permission from me to name what you are seeing. I appreciate the feedback, pointing.

Interesting to understand what you see as a potential developmental edge.

Thanks,

Jim

Here’s an off the jet-lagged cuff response…

Remember when Herb used to say that he and are talked by each other?

That’s happening between you and me in ways it didn’t happen before…

This “figurative” not being able to “finish each other’s sentences “mode shows all sorts of things…resonance shifts, hearing what’s in us vs hearing what’s in others…

Ending up talking about things that emerge as unintended effects (we see this in conversations with significant others developing at different rates and scope)…

For the past 10 years I’ve been hanging out with Jim and another super high potential and watching how they are developing kind of like a rolling tire which is more square than round because the development of capability (as I’ve defined in LeaderW@RE weaving the 8 components: perspective, ego position, subjectivity, languaging, task performance, TALENT, affect and sensemaking), they are not completely symmetrical which validates the square tire of development.

I see a coherence struggle emerging in Jim which has edge in it that I haven’t seen before in Jim, call it whatever you’re comfortable with…

It appeared quickly when Jim responded:

I thought it was in this string but it’s not, but it’s where Jim suggested I wanted him to back off…hehe.

As clumsy and socially naive (my daughter’s depiction;)…as I am, I never want anyone to back off and while in that ungracious mode my redass is apparent–Thata also where my developmental edge is (as I related an insight garnered from some indirect language used not necessarily pointed at me, but I used that as leverage for where I am right now to ask deep troubling questions about the LOAD I’m under–especially with a socially tight “keyhole–right now.

I saw Robert Redford talking on tv about the dragon kid movie, looked him up and he’s 80!!

But he still looks and acts a lot less…which centers around some things that my own senses of mortality, functioning, health and productivity have been creeping around, do this half-empty vs half-full equilibrium is in question for me because u can’t have lived and live a life like mine at half-empty…as an example of my own s*** in the street;)

So as a “pattern” guy, there is a disturbance in the force in Jim, or so I feel…and I’m just thinking about it;)

Btw, not to make Jim center stage, there is another person on this list in the midst of a transition also and it’s generative to observe that process ongoing;)

That’s all I got, my iphone screen just turned sleepy color hehe;)

I’ve noticed an edge in Jim’s posts over the months and it’s his push back on all the green stuff…and I “feel” he is yet to directly name the source of this “engagement” which he’s always done (when he had time)…

But I’ve picked up some edge that hasn’t been there and it would take quite a bit a time to go back through the posts so I’m anecdotal, but somethings going on in Jim–as in us all, IMHO.

I need to go back and look at his developmental chart, like I felt in you herb when u started the book project–you are different now–you went through what I believe was a transition to the next level of stage complexity, and I see evidence of hat over the past year.

I would say that something is tickling Jim’s goat…it hasn’t got it yet, but here’s one quick example:

“About your example of buying hygiene supplies for myPals vs. just giving them money vs. doing nothing vs. doing something else. I don’t want to specifically address this, I respect your path to try to create impact in peoples’ lives. I get curious about why you do it, and how you do it, but that is not my business. I do know that you will likely ultimately not be able to peel away the complexity enough to know whether what it is you are doing is creating your desired impact other than through anecdote. That is not a criticism nor an argument to stop, just a reality of complexity.”

I felt something here…something is on there, and through Jim’s gracious approach, there is something going on in Jim–IMHO–but I could be full of shit too, hehe.

There is a battle in Jim that wasn’t there before the past months…I picked it up in the faux-green dialogue…so my “toying” with Jim about his Reiss (cat and mouse if you will “back” with Jim)…and also recognition that Jim “probably” has a “true” FS-core WITH UNUSUAL capability both genetic and nurtured in a very rare way…is something developmentally significant and take note of…

Yet, something is going on…

And I spoke it because I since like what I saw in you Herb…an edge of developmental pushing through you.

When I read you these days, it’s like hearing bedtime stories read by a mother–true comfort, enjoyment, and a sense of wonder to complete he exercise in blowing smoke up your…you know what.

Something changed in you…something is changing in Jim.

That’s the best I can give you off the cuff right now.

Hope that helps;)

Thanks, Mike. It helps as much as you’re able to help. I know that experience of sensing something but not being able to specify just what it is.

Herb

Not sure which thread to put this in, but I find this burkini debate in France interesting – faux green?

It appears, in it’s effort to “protect” women and secularism, enforcing the new rule stomps all over feminism.

“The political row in France has intensified after a woman in a headscarf was photographed on a beach in Nice removing a long-sleeved top while surrounded by armed police.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/25/burkini-ban-sarkozy-calls-swimsuits-a-provocation-that-support-radical-islam

I was going to mention this earlier but didn’t think anyone would be interested;)

This seems huge.

Whenever you begin the process–for whatever reason–of fooling around with artifacts…things get dicey, but how else can they know if you are armed and dangerous?

I don’t think this is faux-green, this is what happens when regression occurs to a different set of values, decreasing degrees of freedom.

I’ll use this moment to extravert my case for a conscious regression vs regression by default.

You’ve heard me say my thoughts about law and order and being forced to law and order which we are seeing MUCH MORE AROUND THE WORLD, than in the USA, I don’t know about Switzerland mark?

I’ll give one important “example” (to me)…respect for authority. I lived during the time of the big switch, the 60s-70s where FS-GREEN began to emerge into mainstream with increasing degrees of individual freedom, which is why clintons, Kerry, Biden, brown are all in leadership now (my contention)…OBAMA, et al is a green machine–not bad, but it’s hard being green.

It’s coincidental that the rise of radicalism went too different directions, one way in the west and another in the Middle East, as you know the Iranian revolution was during the carter years, the first emergence of a FS-GREEN leader in a non-FS-GREEN culture.

A great example–sorry to sidetrack–is what happened with Lochte. Look how he has been punished! Ouch.

Now back to Burkina…

The only choice is to not take your work for it…a regression in trust.

Just because you wear a religious garb doesn’t mean when we trust you. So no, this is not blue running faux, this is blue dealing with red, a regression by default.

What the Trumpster had suggested early on was a conscious regression back to law and order through various acceptable and unacceptable means.

That is an idea that I have discussed indirectly about how the social fabric had changed color and we no longer have a deep blue but a faux-green culture…and that might be where you might have gotten your idea about faux-green.

If you have NODAL FS-GREEN, then you would have respect for authority.

But it’s easier to disrespect authority because it’s cool and a lot of the images (thanks Hollywood) uneducated kids receive is from TV.

We forget that a large number of kids don’t get access to an traditional education (school/church/organizational), just tv!

So Lochte in his story-telling made it cool to say…”I’m not getting down, I didn’t do anything wrong” to what has happened to his life now, near and far.

Here’s the idea:

A large part of the control for the pugnacity of man is made from blue as trust. When trust is eroded, holes in the social fabric gape wide enough to allow in increased levels of opportunism. The amount of cops needed in high trust blue are a lot different in faux-green.

The amount of law and order required is incomparable…and that has been my contention.

It would require HUGE INCREASES of all forms of law and order positions to deport 15 million illegal immigrants and while its close to a travesty, it would serve our population at this point in time to regress the entire system to root out those elements in our society that will serve to destabilize our freedom, and reinstall respect for law and order as a result, create millions of good paying jobs for the level of capability we have.

Now before u knee jerk like the media, I’m not saying Trump could make this happen, but…

If you think this is bad, just wait and have it done by default.

Could we do this without deporting the illegals?

Maybe. Probably, but where would be the social leverage for us to do it?

We really need to regress the system and reinstall density in blue, we need a civilry and at least 1-2 million members acting at various levels in coercion including absolute force.

Anyway, that’s my crazy idea;)

mike

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